posted 06-17-99 07:16 PM         

A REVIEW: Now if you remember my previous post called "new electro-methods" I explained that since there is a OH on ephedrine right next to the benzene group once the benzene group becomes a dihydro- the OH swallows the 1 position hydrogen to form water and the 4 position hydrogen saturates the double bond where the OH used to be.

The neat thing about this patent is that it takes place with a undivided cell with water. The electrolyte is a quaternary ammonium hydroxide.

Read the patent abstract below- Read it carefully. If you visit the website you can see the accual patent with a more detailed description of the cathode and whatnot...

US4187156: Preparation of dihydroaromatic hydrocarbons
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Inventor(s):Coleman; James P. , Maryland Heights, MO
Wagenknecht; John H. , Kirchwood, MO

Applicant(s):Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO

Issued/Filed Dates:Feb. 5, 1980 / Dec. 21, 1977

Application Number:US1977000862719

IPC Class:C25B 003/04;

Class:Current: 205/463;
Original: 204/073.R;

Field of Search:204/73 R,59 R

Abstract:Electrolytic reduction at the cathode of aromatic hydrocarbons in an aqueous emulsive electrolysis medium in an undivided electrolytic cell yields dihydroaromatic hydrocarbons.

Attorney, Agent, or Firm:Brooks; Wendell W.; Williams, Jr.; James W.; Kennedy; Joseph D.;

Primary/Assistant Examiners:Kaplan; G. L.;

U.S. References: Show the 2 patents that reference this one
Patent Issued Inventor(s) TitleUS3682791*8 /1972 Matthews
US3682794*8 /1972 Matthews
US3684669*8 /1972 Matthews
US3699020*10 /1972 Connolly et al.
US3700572*10 /1972 Hatayama et al.
* some details unavailable

First Claim:Show all 10 claims

What is claimed is:
1. A process for the preparation of dihydroaromatic hydrocarbons which comprises electrolytic reduction at the cathode in an undivided electrolytic cell by passing a direct electric current through a basic aqueous emulsive electrolysis medium comprising an aromatic hydrocarbon selected from the group consisting of benzene, biphenyl, naphthalene, and alkyl derivatives thereof having 1 to 4 carbon atoms and an aqueous solution of a quaternary ammonium hydroxide to yield the dihydroaromatic hydrocarbon, wherein the electrolytic reduction is conducted in the substantial absence of amine salts.
2. The process of claim 1 wherein the aromatic hydrocarbon is benzene and the dihydroaromatic hydrocarbon is 1,4-cyclohexadiene.
3. The process of claim 1 wherein the quaternary ammonium hydroxide is a tetraalkylammonium hydroxide.
4. A process for the preparation of dihydroaromatic hydrocarbons which comprises electrolytic reduction at the cathode in an undivided electrolytic cell by passing a direct electric current through a basic aqueous emulsive electrolysis medium comprising an aromatic hydrocarbon selected from the group consisting of benzene, biphenyl, naphthalene, and alkyl derivatives thereof having 1 to 4 carbon atoms and an aqueous solution of a quaternary ammonium hydroxide to yield the dihydroaromatic hydrocarbon, wherein the concentration of the quaternary ammonium hydroxide is maintained by removal of carboxylate ions formed in situ in the electrolysis medium and simultaneous replacement by hydroxide ions.
5. The process of claim 4 wherein the carboxylate ions being removed are exchanged for hydroxide ions via alkaline or basic ion exchange.
6. The process of claim 4 wherein the carboxylate ions being removed are replaced by hydroxide ions via electrodialysis.
7. A process for the preparation of dihydroaromatic hydrocarbons which comprises electrolytic reduction at the cathode in an undivided electrolytic cell by passing a direct electric current through a basic aqueous emulsive electrolysis medium comprising an aromatic hydrocarbon selected from the group consisting of benzene, biphenyl, naphthalene, and alkyl derivatives thereof having 1 to 4 carbon atoms and an aqueous solution of a quaternary ammonium hydroxide, in absence of amines or ammonia to yield the dihydroaromatic hydrocarbon, the anode in the cell being of conductive material causing very little reoxidation of dihydroaromatic hydrocarbon, being a de Nora-type dimensionally stable anode, and in which a cathode selected from mercury, zinc, lead or cadmium is used.
8. A process for the preparation of dihydroaromatic hydrocarbons which comprises electrolytic reduction at the cathode in an undivided electrolytic cell by passing a direct electric current through a basic aqueous emulsive electrolysis medium comprising an aromatic hydrocarbon selected from the group consisting of benzenes, biphenyl, naphthalene, and alkyl derivatives thereof having 1 to 4 carbon atoms and an aqueous solution of a quaternary ammonium hydroxide, in absence of amines or ammonia to yield the dihydroaromatic hydrocarbon, the anode in the cell being of conductive material causing very little reoxidation of dihydroaromatic hydrocarbon, being stainless steel.
9. A process for the preparation of dihydroaromatic hydrocarbons which comprises electrolytic reduction at the cathode in an undivided electrolytic cell by passing a direct electric current through a basic aqueous emulsive electrolysis medium comprising an aromatic hydrocarbon selected from the group consisting of benzene, biphenyl, naphthalene, and alkyl derivatives thereof having 1 to 4 carbon atoms and an aqueous solution of a quaternary ammonium hydroxide, in absence of amines or ammonia to yield the dihydroaromatic hydrocarbon, the anode in the cell being of conductive material causing very little reoxidation of dihydroaromatic hydrocarbon, being made of precious metal oxides plated on a titanium substrate.
10. A process for the preparation of dihydroaromatic hydrocarbons which comprises electrolytic reduction at the cathode in an undivided electrolytic cell by passing a direct electric current through a basic aqueous emulsive electrolysis medium comprising an aromatic hydrocarbon selected from the group consisting of benzene, biphenyl, naphthalene, and alkyl derivatives thereof having 1 to 4 carbon atoms and an aqueous solution of a quaternary ammonium hydroxide, in absence of amines or ammonia to yield the dihydroaromatic hydrocarbon, the anode in the cell being of conductive material causing very little reoxidation of dihydroaromatic hydrocarbon, being nickel.

Foreign References:none

posted 07-03-99 04:56 PM         

The cathode is zinc or lead.

The medium is distilled water.

posted 07-07-99 02:01 PM         

Sure seems to fill the bill for quik'n e z : have you had any practical experience with application of this technique??

Still lookin' at 3,000 coulombs per gram? No voltage parameters: just current density?

I owe you still the alcohol/aluminum/cathode protection experiment: but time in the "lab" has been scarce as the proverbial hens teeth so far this summer and will continue to be so 'till August.

regards,
dwarfer

posted 07-08-99 05:56 PM         

Isn't this a Birch Reaction (in essence) without having to get anhydrous ammonia or lithium or other difficult items??

Maybe this should be called

"ELECTRO BIRCH"

Are you set up to do an experiment with this??

Damn I must be missing something: this looks TOO easy.

OP: Where's my nickle??

Wait: aren't 5 cent pieces pure nickle??

do not I have an oxyacetylene torch??

shit the regulators are being fixed.

The only thing I'm confused about is the "substantial absence of amine salts"??

Is this route to honey fields just super easy or am I flagellating my neurons for nothing??

posted 07-09-99 04:40 AM         

Yea, but applies to mabye others no... paa???

posted 07-09-99 12:59 PM         

Say it ain't so.

posted 07-09-99 05:21 PM         

IT AIN'T SO!!!!

If you visited "http//www.patents.ibm.com" and read the scanned pages you would have seen that the process can occur both ways. They only said that "the electrolytic reduction is conducted in the substantial absence of amine salts" because it is more econmicly prudent to do so. Also the ephedrine would only be an amine salt if it was Eph-HCl or some such nonesense.

The article gives no voltage because it is a general patent and not in the business of producing illegal substances. I would use the Al in ethanol experiment to provide a workable voltage for this experiment.

posted 07-09-99 06:45 PM         

I recall some concern about their carcinogenicity a few years ago.

My recollection on the aluminum cathode alcohol experiment was just to see if it would be protected. Is there some other v or i variables you want to see tested?

Also, inasmuch as the patent holders went to some lengths to specify anodes that would not contribute to oxidation, would it not be feasible just to use the cathode cell in a two-part system? Unless I missed picking it up, the anode was im-material except as a "negative" (in a perjorative sense) to be avoided.

Oh goodie another route to add to my experiment list.

posted 07-10-99 04:43 PM         

Then solution is to reverse the process

First reduce the the, then oxidize it and likewise anhydrously!

Rock-on

posted 07-11-99 03:26 PM         

Try getting him to elaborate on his new dream.

posted 07-18-99 11:15 AM         

If you use a divided cell the reductions and oxidations are usually more vigirous. This can be countered by lower voltages.

posted 07-24-99 05:28 PM         

This is interesting and I have it stashed away for future consideration, but presently am preoccupied with ZnCl2 and a new machine type.

I'm a lookie loo on this one!

posted 08-03-99 05:06 AM         

Ok so we really like the shrown on the electroshit still, wana rent? CURTAINS?

...............////////////

Ok so we, there are some problems with the machine? Ya dont say ,,,,hum it may take FMAN a while tost find his way through the maze to the end therin found?

The # 1 problem is that the dang thing has got no fucking shild man, the thing is all wack!!!!ooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!

EEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRR

ok so which is in there and why dont they sell the good shit to the pupic aliars?

Man-I-Found-um-THINK - GOLD - OVERHEREMAN!!!

Ok, so what the heck is in the dame thing ????

posted 08-03-99 01:37 PM         

shed light; make clear; you are saying the stuff you can get OTC doesn't work??

posted 08-03-99 09:04 PM         

The thing does get rid of the water this is ecentially a dehydration of the solvent, not fucking water!

posted 08-26-99 05:37 PM         

Therefore one can create a "blue" solution with this method.

posted 08-26-99 06:56 PM         

i recently came across an ultrasonic cleaning bath, stainless steel, :

I wonder what it would be good for. draws about 50 watts.

Wonder if a dilute acid bath working on a benzyl compound with a chlorine replacement where the hydroxy usta be would effect replacement of the chlorine atom??

different subject: sorry.

posted 08-26-99 06:58 PM         

Mainstay is generate HCL first to this argument, unless ya discover how to make dry HCL with the electro I doubt it will improve really anythign of interest to me, But this is the insight I have the thingy also makes Clear slimmy stuff and such might be Cloroaddproduct interesting huh? ChCl3 Formalin, I just dont got the basic shit to figure this out it the electro drives current technology transfer, the shity thing makes alot more shit than plain nobel gas like O2 H2 Cl Naoh Allot is happening in there like peroxide formation and stuff, this is the basic evolution of greater discoveries, unless ya just plain skip electro and go onto microwave, I just am never in a hury during to quest to discover these things really....
---Amethystium---

To sum up the mater some ingenious individuals have been making alot of money with this basement technology and experimenting on your own and sharing the resultant will be worth your time but others will insist maybe even take action should you divert the deeds, maybe hjust be carefull and analytical in your aproach the thingy might blow up ok????NO?

Take thingy with two upside down glasses tubes plastic whatever, Place wires thin under the lip edge now on upsidedown Run an l type one way sucker in there with syringe attached like a one way vacume pump. The thing could have a middle hollow shank or some straw shaped like an L,,,ok so the shank idea ok,,,the shank trhough some wood or plastic or ceramic ow whatever a base like a lamp shank ok,,,,now drill a hole are ya kidding make another like shank go in there now ya got a slidding thing on the inside this is going to do whatever ya want ok....No ya drill some holes in there at different levels if ya want or if only extracting top gass, well some gasses are heavy...um well ya can figure it out on your own ok, the technology is concerning magnetic sheilding and such rember to bigass spark generators thought so ok they supposabbly twist and turn and stuff kinda like a reverse microwave oven maybe I dont know...They just aint bragging about it ok? So the shank is in there and it the gas sucker is adgustable the safter ok this is the saftey shank ok????

posted 08-26-99 07:41 PM         

Guy dont make or use drugs was recruited to help us, ok? Who he is is a mystery I have recruited cops even ok?

This is a smorgasboard, there are some pro people he also, criminals and cops, it is like public forum,,,Babylon ok.

Could be golden age I dont know where this leads but things is gona change alot if we dont end up killing the dang thing, anyways I like to talk write also....

Who cares, hapy sad like enemy it just does make seense....

Ok so the reduction in absence of amine goes on to produce from solvent like possibly CHARCOAL FLUID????

Yep seems likely I really dont like saying this but it is very plausable, I dont even know what the heck is in charcoal fluid neither it must be the prefered mix though simple cheap readily available many markets individual markets no doubt hard for the war effort and this stuff is begining to fold down finally has reached meltpoint thank God....

Ok so the Nickle he has presumed ya can not screw up this note he leaves he is only trying to help, he aint gona help ya kill your self ok...

The metal and such also contains other stuff it is a group of metals,,,ok

the clorine will do neat stuff, iodine , bromine, many others to play with ok.....

In solvent it seems the solvent goes onto the dihydo state which means something important he is teaching wisely this GUY

He the Chem GUY is way good ok

the thing reduses the solvent if.....

Well point is what if ya add the GOODS????

Well maybe it does do something in solvent,,,,

And it also does somethign in water....

And it does something in a one container method and does so in seperated container and does somethibng different with oscillating current +_+_+_+_+_+_+_______++++++_+_+_+_+_+_ imagina all the variables

What ya are gona do if ya is a real buzy bee is probably discover some new kinda drug????

Ok so get it correct some things like metal are soluable in water some others are not soluable depending on the choice of metals and there resultant interactions ya can do all kinds of techno stuff, not just make dope

Dope is ok though but what I really whant is creative abbality to take this platform onto better things like extracting active stuff from food like choclate to make drugs to starve the frigging war dead man kill the whole send nonviolent individuals to prision for what????ussing there brain and getting ratted or rather having some retard beet them snicker them to death or steal food from little kids and stuff.

There aint in my opinion with somebody doing harm to themselves no problemo unless they dont cant figure they is harming themselves like why stop someone from smoking a cigareete,,,why not make the ciggareeetes safer

This I Hope explains the quest from the stanby I recieve from the Mysterious individual,, recrit, or leader it really is allways serve to be served in my opinion my have never served and wana be served and they just plain dont derserve to be served and they dont know how to earn respect without harming another person..

Man I think we are all rotten scum to the core all of us....Cops criminals good bad alike we all very simmilar really\\

What is good is I got lots of time now to slow down and appreciate the better things in life because I have one good friend...This is all I got ONE GOOD FRIEND.

It is suffecient for me ONE.....

posted 08-27-99 07:18 PM         

Yeah, we are all scum sucking self involved idiots fer sure: but we all have stardust and light also: at least almost all of us do.

And thanks to Chem Man and you and Zen and Worlock and OP and Abbie and Thpitterdude all the other diverse people that share ??? and answers and gems and bull shit here: with occasional visitations from the Chemical Elite who sometimes help and sometimes ridicule: a subset of human nature herein we find, just like any other place where "two or more are gathered in my Name."
==========================

The difference between us and the fuzz is that they can be thugs and get away with it: but lemmetellyawhat, as suckmoid as they can be in the land of the free, they can be the literal Antichrist in some other lands: so avoid em when you can and try to change the way things are going, but also be appreciative of what we DO have: diminishing though it may be.
======================

ANY government that thinks that controlling access to information is the way to effectively provide for the future is in reality cutting off it's own fingers, hands, feet, flesh: and will ultimately bleed to death on the pitchfork of the disenchanted population that finally says "enough".

And here we have the second most densely populated prisons per 100,000: only behind the ex soviet union: and 60% of those in jail are their for non violent drug crimes.

What a charade!

and damn! Georgy Jr. might have insufflated some blow 25 years ago, but since then he got religion, grew up, gave up drink, and is all for ZERO tolerance.

Well guess what, Georgy:

FUCK YOU!

And the rest of you better than PRIGS that think you are sitting on the right hand of God Almighty.

well, this oughta be in the couch: so off my bandstand/soapbox go I.

snodder

posted 09-06-99 07:57 PM         

"The fact that dilute solutions containing equivalents amounts of
alkali and alkaline metals give virtually the same near-infrared
absorption spectra indictaes the presence of a common absorbing species
which must be described without reference to the cation. Indeed,
dilute solutions of solvated electrons electrochemically generated
in the presence of tetraalkylammonium ions with widely-varying
structural parameters are also optically indistinguishable from
those formed by the dissolution of metal atoms."

From "The journal of Chemical Physics", Vol 44, number 6,
page 2297, 15 march 1966.

"...The approximate times necessary at -78C for the optical density
due to the solvated electron to decay to one half its initial value
were 8, 20, 8, and 25 mirco-sec for mathanol, ethanol, isopropanol,
and n-butanol, respectively. These half-times are 10 to 20 times
longer than the corresponding values at room tempature."
"... at -78C, absorptions due to the solvated electron were obtained
for monomethylamine (T[.5]= 3 mirco-sec) and monoethylamine
(T[.5]= 3.5 mirco-sec). At -110C the absorption of the solvated
electron in diethylether was obtained (T[.5]= 2 mirco-sec)."

Here is a condensed table of the half-life of the solvated electron
in various solvents: (From the same work as above)

SUBATANCE/HALF-LIFE IN MIRCO-SECONDS
[all measuements at 25C unless otherwise stated]
100% glycerol / .44
63% glycerol- 37% water / .75
47% " - 53% " / .9
32% " - 68% " / 1.6
19% " - 1% " / 1.5
8.3% " - 92% " / 1.3
53% water - 47% ethanol / 3.4
36% " - 64% " / 2.2
20% " - 80% " / 2.5
10% " - 90% " / .40
50% ethylene glycol - 50% water / .85 @ 20C
10% " - 90% " / .6 @ 20C
70% methanol - 30% water / 2.7
79% isopropanol - 21% water / .7 @ 20C
70% " - 30% " / .65 @ 20C
31% glycerol - 69% ethanol / .5
12% " - 88% " / .75
50% methanol - 50% isopropanol / 10 @ -78C

From "Ionizing Solvents" by I. Junder 1970
from a table and its amendments and then text-

"NaOH....i[meaning insoluble in liquid ammonia]
Na2SO4...i
(NH4)2SO4...i"
"Alcohols: Simple and polyfunctional alcohols are miscible with liquid
ammoina. Phenols are also soluble.

Ethers: Diethylether is moderately soluble [in liquid ammonia].
Ethers having higher molecular weights are not very soluble.

Hydrocarbons: Alkanes are insoluble, while alkenes and alkynes
are slightly soluble. Benzene dissolves readily."

posted 09-06-99 08:26 PM         

So the target molecule is cleaved. Right?
at the NH2 region, which side of the NH2 where at specifically????

posted 09-06-99 08:41 PM         

Obviously this patent is smorgasboard stuff, we can clorinate the target simply enough, rip apart the end methyls with H202 or simmilar like Iodine if need be. Or go with the electro------Zap target with rip apart the end NH2 in sutable solvent, if demethylation presents few problems then attack like stated zap the NH2 NH3 your getting the sequence right am I???

posted 09-07-99 10:10 PM         

What propane thing? Enlighten me please.

As for the epinephrine, why would you want to turn it into ephedrine? It would be easier to convert into methamphetamine.

If you ask a less cryptic question I might be able to help you, otherwise I am in the dark as to what you mean.

posted 09-09-99 03:28 PM         

This process relies on the solvated electron, so no half-wave potintal calcualtions need be done. To test it run current through the cell, without the ephedrine in it, and increase the voltage until the solution turns blue (the spectra for the solvated electron).

Seems real easy doesn't it?

posted 09-09-99 03:35 PM         

Post Script: The colder the solution the less the solvated electron reacts with the solvent and the more it reacts with the aromatic (Ephedrine in this specific case).

posted 09-11-99 02:10 AM         

I'll make a vistation to the water bed store...